Trees are incredibly important. They keep us all breathing, regulate the temperature of our planet and can even make humans feel better.
But trees also have a troublesome side! For this fascinating episode, lawyer Sarah Dodd of Tree Law Ltd explains the risks that foliage can bring, reveals how many trees it takes to replace an ancient oak and highlights how sustainability is not as simple as you might think...
If you would prefer to read rather than listen to this episode, you can find the transcript below.
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TRANSCRIPT
Johnny Thomson 00:02
Trees play an essential role in regulating our environment. So why would something so good need specialist legal representation? Hello everyone and welcome to the RiskACUMEN podcast, which offers thoughtful insight around risk management. Now trees are incredibly important. They literally keep us all breathing, regulate the temperature of our planet and can even make us feel better. But trees also have a troublesome side. Don't we all? And today, I'm joined by someone who knows a lot about the risks that trees and foliage can bring, lawyer Sarah Dodd, who is the founder of a company called Tree Law Limited. Hi Sarah, thank you so much for joining me today.
Sarah Dodd 00:50
Hello Johnny, thanks very much for having me.
Johnny Thomson 00:53
It's an absolute pleasure. And our conversation today is going to cover both the risks the trees present, and also the benefits they bring, bring us all. And I think, right from the outset, I'd like to mention how you describe yourself Sarah. You are the self-styled tree hugging lawyer, of course?
Sarah Dodd 01:16
That's right!
Johnny Thomson 01:17
Which, which for me, just creates all kinds of questions, which is a good thing. So let's start with the lawyer bit first. Tell me what's your legal background?
Sarah Dodd 01:28
Well, I've been a lawyer for about 22 years, I think. I trained with the NHS legal services in Wales, and then went on to spend around 20 years post qualification in corporate law firms. So I was in Eversheds for 14 years and then DAC Beachcroft for around six years.
Johnny Thomson 01:51
Yeah, two big names.
Sarah Dodd 01:53
Yeah, yeah. And in both of those firms I was working for large UK household insurers and some utility providers as well, dealing with claims involving damage to properties or damage to underground or overground infrastructure. And it was from DAC Beachcraft that I went then to set my own business up. And that launched in November 2001.
Johnny Thomson 02:20
Yeah, so that so that damage that you talked about, you kind of ended up specialising in trees, and I guess from from the tree-hugging part, 'that tells me that they also mean a lot to you.
Sarah Dodd 02:33
Yeah.
Johnny Thomson 02:33
And we'll get back to that soon. But let's talk about the dark side of trees and vegetation first, and tell me a little bit more about what kind of damage and infringement they can cause?
Sarah Dodd 02:49
Well, they're quite multifaceted. So when I tell people, I've set up Tree Law, they say, oh that's quite niche. And then, you know, and I think when you delve into it you realise how wide it is. So in terms of the damage that trees can cause, if you live in or around London, you'll be well aware of the risk of trees causing subsidence damage to properties. That's when roots grow underneath the foundations, remove moisture from the soil and cause the property to crack. Then there's also trees falling over. That could be in a storm, or it could not be in a storm, you know a tree could be diseased and just fail and fall, perhaps fall onto a property or fall onto a road. There could be a boundary dispute between neighbours where the tree's branches overhanging a boundary, for example, blocking out light, causing damage to a boundary wall just by its roots growing into the wall/ You know trees could be protected by planning law with tree preservation orders or a tree could be in a conservation area or in an SSSI area. It can involve things to do with, you know, wider things to do with planning, such as trees being removed for new developments to be built. So yeah, those and also it goes into the criminal law as well. Just a little bit different to deal with both both sorts, so that that's really where you're seeing people infringing things like the protections that are on a tree, such as illegally removing a tree with a tree preservation order on it, for example. That's a crime.
Johnny Thomson 04:24
So yeah, I can see what you mean, in terms of it sounds narrow at first, but it really does cover a whole vast area. There was quite a lot of claims last year?
Sarah Dodd 04:35
There were, so that last year was a big event year for subsidence cases. Probably comes as no surprise when the temperatures in the UK topped out at 40 degrees for the first time ever. It was a very hot and dry summer. So that led to a real surge in subsidence claims.
Johnny Thomson 04:56
And there's an irony in that almost, isn't there. That links perfectly back to, not to the dark side, but to the light side of trees. You know, we've established there how hazardous they can be, but putting your tree hugging hat on for a minute, why should we all be protective and appreciative of trees Sarah?
Sarah Dodd 05:19
Oh, for lots of reasons.
Johnny Thomson 05:22
But that environmental one is is a key part isn't it in terms of the rising temperatures that we saw last year, resulting in trees causing damage, but ironically they play a part in regulating the temperature, don't they?
Sarah Dodd 05:36
Exactly, and that's the sort of unique contradiction that these sorts of claims have.
Johnny Thomson 05:41
Yeah.
Sarah Dodd 05:41
So canopy cover in urban areas is incredibly important. You know, one of the ecosystem services, as they're called, that trees provide, is simply shade. And if we're going to have hotter and drier summers, in the shade of a tree, the summer temperature could be up to I think it's about eight or nine degrees centigrade lower than outside of the shade of the tree. So simply put, there's going to be parts of the UK, which in years to come, are going to absolutely have to have canopy cover in order for them to be habitable. So certainly trees in cities are of increasing importance for that and also for other reasons.
Johnny Thomson 06:22
Yeah, fascinating. What about this thing, green-bathing as well, I mentioned in the introduction that trees can actually be quite good for you. This is something I only came across recently. Trees can actually help us deal with stress and are good for our overall health and well-being aren't they?
Sarah Dodd 06:40
Absolutely. And I think that's something that a lot of people who perhaps didn't give them a second thought, actually realised when we were living through the COVID pandemic and going out for a walk was really all that we could do. But there's been wider studies carried out and you know, this is always the subject of I was going to say investigation, but you know subject of study, there's something called 'green equity', where it can be shown that if you live in a green in a leafy area, you're more likely to be employed, be employed in you know in a higher paying job, and have less mental health issues, less physical health issues, less crime. So yeah, they really do bring something unique, and very interesting to hear about those studies.
Johnny Thomson 07:31
So, when when you when you're when you're doing your your legal thing, your lawyer thing, I guess you must come across situations where the obvious answer seems to be well... remove the vegetation, remove the trees, but that must really conflict with you in terms of how you feel about, you know, the benefits that the trees are actually bringing to us all?
Sarah Dodd 07:54
Yeah, and, you know, I think one of the one of the interesting parts of what I'm doing is, it's certainly not formulaic, you know every situation has got to be looked at individually. There's no doubt that there are some situations in which trees have to be removed. You know, if a tree is at risk of failure, and it's a health and safety risk, and you know worst case scenario it could fall and it could kill somebody, then nobody would argue with the fact that if you know if that's too high a risk that that tree needs to be removed. But but I think, my thoughts are that in other cases, where there's tree versus damaged property, it really needs to be looked at in greater detail to move away from the more well trodden path of oh, we think it could be the tree, so let's just get that out quickly and then we'll have another look and see if that solves the problem. I just don't think we can we can do that.
Johnny Thomson 08:49
I guess a simple solution is if you have to remove that tree for health and safety reasons, as you've said, why not simply replace it as well as part of the process, yeah?
Sarah Dodd 08:59
Yeah and that's another hot topic as well, there.
Johnny Thomson 09:04
Tell me about it!
Sarah Dodd 09:06
It all is, it's, it's just so so intricate, which makes it just so interesting. You know, I love it. I think our first, our first presumption has got to be that we're going to try and retain as many trees as we can and the older the tree is, you know, ancient and veteran trees, for example, you know there should be an awful lot of focus on retaining those because although you can replant to replace trees that have gone, that can be you know, that can be very difficult to do. Actually, I'll ask you a question now Johnny. So I was at an event hosted by the Aboricultural Association, just watching on YouTube. And there was somebody on there who asked the audience how many five year old oak trees do you think would need to be planted to replace one Ancient oak? And threw that out to the audience. So what do you think?
Johnny Thomson 10:05
So five year old oak to replace one of what age?
Sarah Dodd 10:10
An ancient oak, so I'm not sure what age bracket that would be. But old!
Johnny Thomson 10:16
Yeah. Okay. I don't know, I would say what... ten? Fifteen? Something like that?
Sarah Dodd 10:25
It's 3,062.
Johnny Thomson 10:27
What?
Sarah Dodd 10:31
Yeah. And then also, it gets more eye watering when you realise that actually, if the tree that's been taken down, the timber is burned, which it often is, that number then doubles. So then you're getting into sort of over 6,000. So then it really starts painting the picture of, actually is chopping down... replacing, is that even feasible? I mean, we live on a relatively small island where we're pushed the space, and we're in a housing crisis and trying to, you know, it just gives you a real idea of how impossible that really is.
Johnny Thomson 11:09
Absolutely! Yeah, I mean, you know, take away a big ancient tree, as you've mentioned, and basically what you're saying is you've got to plant a forest to replace it.
Sarah Dodd 11:19
Yeah.
Johnny Thomson 11:21
Very interesting. You do make a contribution though yourself, don't you? In terms of... before everyone starts thinking oh the lawyer's only in it for the money?
Sarah Dodd 11:33
Yes, the business is, you know, I wanted to create a business that was going to align with the values of what I was trying to achieve. So, and again, you know there's political elements to this, so I would ask all your sort of keen listeners to give me some grace with that. But we have carbon footprinted the business, so been through a decarbonisation assessment, worked out what the carbon footprint of the businesses is. Reduce that were possible, and then offset the remaining footprint where not possible. And I know that offsets can be pretty political. And as well as that we also, at the end of cases, contribute a small amount of the profits from that case to the clients choice of environmental charity. So really, really small things, really small. But, you know, hopefully, as the business grows, those commitments will also grow.
Johnny Thomson 12:33
So trees can play a part in that in that offsetting that you're talking about, yeah?
Sarah Dodd 12:38
They can. Offsetting again is a tricky one. A tree can play a part in offsetting, but it has to be a tree that would be over and above what would be there if the land were in its natural state. And that's difficult, because we live in the UK where our natural state would have been a deciduous woodland.
Johnny Thomson 13:01
Right?
Sarah Dodd 13:02
So it's going to be difficult to plant something within the UK, necessarily, that could create a carbon credit. I think other things could, you know other sorts of things within the UK could do that. But I'm not sure how successful tree planting is to create a pure carbon credit. I might be wrong, but that's my understanding.
Johnny Thomson 13:25
Yeah, like all things. And I mean, everybody from the kind of risk and the risk management world will understand this when I say it, nothing's ever as simple as it may first appear. And you've got to get down to the detail of this, haven't you?
Sarah Dodd 13:38
Yeah.
Johnny Thomson 13:39
And there's a danger isn't there around greenwashing and all of that side of things as well, that it's very easy for people to see oh, well, I've planted a few trees I've done my bit, I'm environmentally friendly.
Sarah Dodd 13:49
Yeah. And, you know we're going to start seeing, well we're already seeing increasing greenwash litigation. So, you've got big environmental legal entities, such as the group Client Earth, who will look around globally and hold large global corporates to account where they feel that in a declaration is being made, they're incorrect or even misleading.
Johnny Thomson 14:15
So this is a new and emerging risk, in a sense, that organisations will have to be careful with that they're not falling into that trap. That could be set for them, yeah?
Sarah Dodd 14:30
That's right. So I think environmental declarations tend to, well should be coming from exec level, they should be coming from the top down. And I think if you're going to do any sort of declaration or advertise or anything like that, it should be something that is definitely run past your, you know, your sustainability people, your ESG team to make sure that it's robust and accurate and not misleading in any way.
Johnny Thomson 14:54
Which is great, isn't it because it means that there is going to be real substance to anything like that, if people are looking at it in the correct way, and it is likely to have a true impact.
Sarah Dodd 15:07
Yes, yeah.
Johnny Thomson 15:08
So in terms of who you're seeking to get the message out to, I guess insurers are strong audience for you Sarah, because of your connections and links through to them? So what kind of message are you wanting to carry to them currently?
Sarah Dodd 15:26
That's a good question and I think there are three parties involved in any one of my claims and there only ever used to be two. So, when I was acting for insurance companies, I'd largely be bringing the claim in early discussions with a local authority tree owner, and it was just the two of us insurance company versus tree owner. But we're all starting to see that these tree cases get the headlines. You know, there's stuff in the newspapers relatively regularly about issues with trees, local authorities chopping down trees, or developers chopping them down. And the important third party that's come into the equation, is the general public, and the tree protester groups. So, I would think my key point to make is that I think there should be open discussion between insurers, tree owners, whether that's a local authority or other sort of landowner, and also the public. And I think the Environment Act that launched back in November '21 isn going to be a good basis for that. But I think we've got some bumpy times ahead, but I think that open discussion is essential.
Johnny Thomson 16:42
Fantastic. And what about risk managers within organisations who maybe, you know, weren't aware until our conversation that there was such a wide scope and so many hazards and risks associated with with trees? What, what's your recommended approach for for them to take?
Sarah Dodd 17:02
That's a great one, because subsidence and climate change are really hand in hand. And I think of it as one of the only insured perils that perhaps do go hand in hand. But actually, I need to you know, I need to stop myself that because I think flooding probably does a little, burst pipes do. And also, we're starting to see wildfires as well, so those do. But what I would say is that, my understanding is that insurance risk tends to be based on patterns that have happened in the past. You know, insurers will have maps where you could probably put in a postcode and you know, the computer would say, it's too high risk in this area, we don't want to offer cover, or we do but at a higher price, or we do but was subsidence removed? But I think what climate change throws up, is that things are changing on a year by year basis. You know, as I said last year we topped out at 40 degrees for the first time ever. What's going to happen this year, are we going to top out at 40 degrees again? So it's, it's almost that risk assessment isn't going to be very accurate if it's done looking backwards. It needs to be done looking forward into the future. But obviously, we can't look into the future, because it hasn't arrived yet. So, there's a lot of work being done by data scientists, modelling you know what they think is going to happen with climate change, where temperatures are going to go up, and you know where you might see hot temperatures in areas we haven't seen them before. And actually, soils that haven't been problematic in those areas before, because the temperatures haven't been high enough. And now we're going to start seeing claims such as subsidence. So you can see, if you chart maps of the UK and things like true subside, you can see those maps showing claims moving north. I had a conversation with somebody in Yorkshire last week saying that they're starting to see quite a few subsidence claims. And you know, it's not their bread and butter. So they, they need to find out more about them. Whereas in London, they've been they've been on the go since 1976.
Johnny Thomson 19:12
So it's almost your message seems to be don't just try and avoid the problem, but try and become part of the solution. And understand the contribution that trees can make around this and other measures around environmental threats and sustainability as well. And be be be part of that.
Sarah Dodd 19:36
Certainly. And, you know, that's absolutely not easy at all. And it's very difficult to you know, so when you speak to insurers, or any one of the parties involved in this and you know, they ask, well, how, you know, what do you propose and how will we do it? Yeah, and it's a it's a very difficult question to answer.
Johnny Thomson 19:54
Where is that expertise Sarah, you know who would you be tuning to?
Sarah Dodd 20:00
For a question about..?
Johnny Thomson 20:02
Yeah, to understand, you know how we can tackle this ever growing problem? Because as you said, it is very political as well in many respects. So who are the who are the genuine, honest, good guys, experts? Would you say here?
Sarah Dodd 20:24
I mean, I don't want to mention the Government, but they are doing, you know, there are an awful lot of tree based policies happening at the moment. There's a lot going on at the same time. So as I mentioned earlier, we've got the Environment Act, which is live, but we're waiting for parts of it to be enacted. And those parts that are going to be of relevance here are the duty to consult parts, which means that if a local authority tree owner wants to remove a tree, they actually now have to put that out to public consultation, rather than just being able to negotiate with the insurance company and agree to take it down. You've got the biodiversity net gain, which is also set out in the Environment Act. So that's for developers to make sure that if they do, you know, they have to leave the development sites in a state which has got a percentage biodiversity gain, whether that's on site or off site. There's the England Tree Action Plan. There's the London Tree Officers Association are doing work on an evidence strategy. There's a new valuation system for trees, we've got the Task Force of Nature Related Financial Disclosures, which is going to be coming at us over the horizons, you know, in the next couple of years. So there's an awful lot going on.
Johnny Thomson 21:46
It''s a minefield, isn't it to a certain extent, but it's an education piece therefore, it's about research, isn't it and understanding a) the magnitude of the problem and b) the complexity of what's involved in trying to trying to solve that problem.
Sarah Dodd 22:03
It is, and I think, I almost think that the only place that we can start is to start measuring. I've been talking to businesses in the past about starting on the decarbonisation journey. So measuring your scope, one, two, and three emissions. So you're basically measuring your carbon footprint. Because processes have got a carbon footprint. I mean, we're all aware that driving your car, turning your heating on, those flying in a plane, those have got a footprint, but a process has also got a carbon footprint. Retaining data on a server's got a carbon footprint, as well as coming out and I don't know, installing some underpinning to a property. But I think the good place to start is to start measuring what that footprint is measure the footprint of the process that we've currently got. And then start looking at whether there are some quick and easy changes that can be made to bring that number down. And then looking into the future about how that number can be brought even further down. Because, we all need to hit net zero. That I mean, that's an inevitability we have to. Whether we do it intentionally, or whether nature makes us do it, it's going to happen. So I think starting with that measure, and I've likened it to a post Christmas weigh in before, you're gonna get on the scales, and the numbers gonna be high, and you're going to think 'oh my goodness', but you need to start there to work out how to start bringing it down again.
Johnny Thomson 23:02
And that's doing your bit, isn't it as well? It's, it's thinking about the contribution that you can make, rather than just getting overwhelmed by the bigger picture and the overall problem.
Sarah Dodd 23:44
Yeah, yes, exactly.
Johnny Thomson 23:47
Yeah. Anything else Sarah that you'd like to add or get across?
Sarah Dodd 23:51
I don't think there's, there's almost like so much that can be said in this area. It's difficult to know the the bits to really highlight. I think there's an awful lot of expertise out there in terms of, as I was saying like data scientists, data modelling, and being able to model patterns into the future about, you know, where properties may be more susceptible to damage, and to really be able to pick out those ones that are at extreme risk and leave the ones alone that are sort of, you know, in a green or even an amber area. But there are some, there's some great resources out there. So if anybody is, you know, if anybody's a listener and worried about perhaps their house suffering damage as a result of a tree themselves, then there's places you can look for information. So the Financial Ombudsman Service has got a great piece on subsidence on their website. The likes of the Woodland Trust, he London Tree Officers Association, there's the Subsidence Forum, as well, so there's lots of free resources out there with information if anyone wants to do some research of their own.
Johnny Thomson 24:55
Fantastic. That's great, Sarah. It's been it's been wonderful talking to you. I'm off to hug a tree myself now.
Sarah Dodd 25:04
Excellent. You'll feel better for it.
Johnny Thomson 25:06
I'll do a bit of green-bathing as well, while I'm there.
Sarah Dodd 25:10
Lovely.
Johnny Thomson 25:11
Brilliant, but no thanks again, Sarah. Wonderful stuff and, and best of luck with everything.
Sarah Dodd 25:17
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Johnny Thomson 25:20
Absolute pleasure. And that's it for this episode of the RiskACUMEN podcast. If you have any questions or comments around the topic we've discussed today, or any of our other risk-related content, please head to our LinkedIn page. You can find a link at riskacumen.co.uk. Thanks everyone for listening in and until the next time, goodbye for now.
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